Win and Keep In-House Clients: A General Counsel’s Insights for Law Firms

[00:00:00] Candisse Williamson: And I’ve had other firms that sort of took the note, continued down the wrong path, took the note again, continued down the wrong path, and then I moved the work and they were like, wait, wait, what? Can you tell me more about why that happened? And I’m like, I did and you didn’t.

[00:00:17] Announcer: Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let’s get started with the show.

[00:00:34] Michelle Calcote King: Hi everyone. I’m Michelle Calcote King. I’m your host and I’m also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We are a public relations and thought leadership marketing agency for B2B professional services firms such as law firms. To learn more, go to RepInk.com. So today we’re going to talk about how marketing can get clients in the door, but what happens after they’ve walked through it? What does it take to keep them happy and engaged? For today’s episode, we’re joined by entertainment lawyer Candisse Williamson, who was the general counsel at Hartbeat, a global media company founded by Kevin Hart. She’ll walk us through a general counsel’s perspective on the art of client partnership, why intention makes or breaks relationships, and what tactics stand out when courting a prospective client. So thank you so much and welcome to the show.

[00:01:25] Candisse Williamson: Thanks for having me, Michelle. Happy to be here.

[00:01:28] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. So let’s talk about client engagement. Well, first actually, before we get into the meat of the discussion, I’d love to learn a little bit about you and your background and how you got to where you are with Kevin Hart’s company.

[00:01:41] Candisse Williamson: Sure, of course. Happy to do that. Yeah, so I started my career in big law. I spent the first five and a half years of my career doing corporate M&A and private equity transactions at two large law firms. I then went in-house at Madison Square Garden in New York and I started, that’s where I shifted into entertainment, obviously live entertainment there. Most of my work was focused on the Rockettes Christmas show at Radio City. So I spent another five years there. And then I moved to L.A. and got into more traditional television and film. And so my role first at Skybound, which is a comic book, founded by a comic book owner. And they do everything from The Walking Dead to Invincible. And that was the first opportunity where I really started and formed a legal department from the ground up. And so I spent four years building that function out. And then after four years there, I joined Hartbeat to effectively do the same thing, also the first lawyer to join the company and built out the legal function. And in those two roles in particular, I obviously had a lot of interaction, you know, selecting the right outside counsel and keeping the right outside counsel on my bench, so to speak.

[00:02:52] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. Good. Well, perfect. So tell us about client engagement. So you’ve been at firms and you’ve been in-house. So how has that evolved over the course of your career and what’s different about how firms approach relationships today?

[00:03:08] Candisse Williamson: Yeah, I found when I was in a firm, and obviously this was sort of a different time. I started my career even before the housing market crash, where a lot of law firms had layoffs and stopped doing big, splashy client events. So I was expecting when I was a client still to have some of those big flashy client events, to be sort of wined and dined a little bit. I think that still happens for a certain client level, obviously. But what I found is that really isn’t the case. I’m not being swooped around, taken to interesting events by firms most of the time. It really is a personal relationship, especially with the size of firms that I’m working with. And you know, on one hand maybe that’s slightly disappointing, but on the other hand, I think there’s a lot of other touch points that are a lot more meaningful with firms in this space. So I’m finding more small dinner invitations, you know, maybe a conference invitation for things that they might be throwing. And, you know, we can certainly talk more about whether those things are effective or not, but it’s definitely not, the big splashy events are not necessarily things that firms are doing anymore.

[00:04:23] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. That’s interesting. So let’s pivot to bringing on outside counsel. So you’ve said you’re working, you’ve done, you’ve built up law departments. This is your second go round at doing that. Yeah. How have you actually gone about finding and selecting firms? What’s helped you to drive those decisions?

[00:04:42] Candisse Williamson: Great question. So typically I focus on relationships that I already have, people that I trust, that I know have done great work and I’ve worked with. So for example, I go back to people that I started my career with who are now partners at the firms that I was trained at, where I know they’ve gotten good training because I’ve gotten good training. I also talked to peer companies, right? So when I started at Hartbeat, for example, I reached out to other GCs of similarly situated celebrity-helmed companies to say, hey, who are you guys using for this part of your business? And so once I have a trusted relationship that I know they understand sort of what my standards are, what types of issues we’re facing from an industry perspective, we often get to the right person and it may take a conversation or two through those referrals. But I generally appreciate a grounded referral, not from like a friend of a friend, but really a trusted advisor to a trusted advisor who really knows what they’re doing in this space and can build out the level of expertise that I really need to serve the business.

[00:05:49] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, yeah. It’s such an important thing in this industry. So once you’ve brought on that outside counsel, what does proactive relationship maintenance look like from a law firm? What have, as you’ve been working with these firms, what are some of the touch points that stand out to you?

[00:06:07] Candisse Williamson: I think, yeah, a couple things. The first thing is most law firms, big or small, have the benefit of having their finger on the industry because they’re servicing so many different clients. And so I think if law firms take the opportunity to connect dots for me proactively, that’s really helpful. So for example, there could be an opportunity that they’re working on a deal with one client for one thing, and they may say, I think Hartbeat might be trying to do something similar. Maybe you guys should just meet. I think it’d be good for you guys to get to know each other. You know, even if it doesn’t result in anything but an easier deal for me to do in nine months when we actually do have something with that other company, just making relationship connections, I think across industry is really helpful when firms really think about what I’m dealing with and what could benefit me and the company. Another touch point is industry expertise. So when a firm sort of proactively says, hey, did you know that this new X, Y, Z law is coming down the pike? And it could look like a client alert, but it’s also often better if it’s just like an article and they thought about how this might affect our business or how it might be something that I need to be thinking about as I’m putting together, you know, X, Y, Z deal. I really value firms that understand my particular business, where we sit in the industry and where the industry’s headed, even ahead of where what I can really think about it, and offer some context more broadly. Because oftentimes in-house, your head is down and you’re focused on the thing in front of you. And I appreciate firms that really are in the business with me, but also can use their broader scope to help me think more broadly from time to time. So those two things are a bit more intentional and intimate, so to speak, that I found a lot of value out of when firms do it.

[00:08:02] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Like an advisor relationship, not just taking orders, but really thinking about your business and your issues. Totally. Yeah. So has there been a time when a firm got that client relationship right? What did it do to really make them stand out? And it might be those two things you mentioned or what comes to you?

[00:08:27] Candisse Williamson: I think, you know, we’ve talked a lot about sort of the courting and marketing components of it, but you can’t ever forget that the quality of the work has to be strong. And so we can have all of the conversations from trusted advisor and you can send me all the articles, but you got to deliver on the work. And so I have a firm or a number of firms that really find the right associate for the right level, for the right billing rate, you know, to really deliver on the substance of the work quickly. If they can make my job easier, make it more efficient for me, or those on my team, they will always get it right in my book that way. Nothing can replace smart lawyering and solid work product. Nothing. You can do all the fancy things and it doesn’t matter if the work is too expensive, too slow and not well done. So I think that’s essential. Yeah. And kind of goes without saying, but I want to make sure that I do say that. I think the other place where people get it right is accepting feedback. So, you know, I try to be a very thoughtful, direct communicator because I need my law firms and I hope they understand how much I appreciate the work that they do, because I couldn’t do my job without their support. But there are times where they get it wrong, whether it’s the quality of the work, whether it’s the speed, whether it’s the fee, or really oftentimes you may have heard this, right? Like, firms can overdo it, right? It’s like, I don’t need the 40-page memo. I need you to just tell me the risks. You know, have a moment with background if you need it for a CYA, but I just need to know what to do and like get it done quickly. So I’ve had firms who have received that feedback and actually took it truly and made a pivot for me that was intentional and thoughtful and it worked and it was meaningful. And I’ve had other firms that sort of took the note, continued down the wrong path, took the note again, continued down the wrong path, and then I moved the work and they were like, wait, wait, what? Can you tell me more about why that happened? And I’m like, well, I did and you didn’t, right? So having a firm and particularly a relationship partner that’s willing to hear you and pivot appropriately is invaluable because that actually helps you obviously maintain the client. And I don’t want to go back to the drawing board. I like you and I want to make it work. So if they’re creative and able to make it work with me, that’s also an invaluable component.

[00:11:12] Michelle Calcote King: I love that when you said, look, I just want to make this work. Yeah. So, yeah, and we’re all human. Those things happen. Well, you kind of gave me an example there, but I wanted to ask about, on the flip side, are there certain things that make you decide not to work with a firm again?

[00:11:29] Candisse Williamson: Yeah, I do. I think that there are instances where a firm over-lawyers. And I really don’t love that term because I think, you know, we need smart lawyers that are thorough. Right, right. But I can use an example of trademark because I think that’s an area that I have found in my career to be so easily a, you know, like an unhitched truck just sort of running down a hill if you don’t catch it. And so what I appreciate about a good trademark lawyer, and I use this particular practice area as an example, because it feels very like you file the trademark, you get, you sort of file it and it doesn’t make a difference. But as you may know, you know, there’s so many different classes. You can get a trademark for a particular word for a jacket or for a plant or for a television or for a pair of glasses. So a lot of trademark lawyers will just ask the client, you know, hey, do you want to file this trademark everywhere? And the client will say, if they’re not a lawyer, right? They’ll say, yeah, I want to file everywhere. I want to make sure it’s protected everywhere. I want to file in all the classes. Right? Which it costs money per class. And then you actually, in the U.S., have to show use in every class, which is typically not going to happen. And so, yeah, there have been instances where I’ve absorbed an existing trademark portfolio where they filed in like for Kleenex boxes or tissue boxes. And I’m like, we’re not going to do a Hartbeat tissue box, right? So why did we do that? Right? And so you end up spending money to file, spending money to remove the filing because people aren’t paying attention. They’re just saying file everywhere. We want to make sure that we’re protected everywhere. So anyway, when I’ve had firms who will just sort of proceed on the client advice or the client’s response without saying, let me just hold a minute. Let me tell you practically what you should be doing, what’s customary in your industry, where it really is going to matter and where it really won’t matter to save you money and to save you time and to save your dollars. Let me advise you practically and strategically what I really think you should do. And I’ve had firms that just sort of have run wild on that point without oversight. And if they don’t, if they’re not thinking like that or trying to rein it back for me because they just want to sort of let the billing hours roll, that is an easy way to ruin a relationship with the law.

[00:14:03] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Being good stewards of your budget and your money is a key, I think, relationship builder. So when you have firms and they’re sort of between active legal matters, how have you seen firms stay present with you or sort of keep that relationship alive when they’re maybe not involved in an active matter?

[00:14:26] Candisse Williamson: Yeah. That one’s I think can be tricky and it sometimes kind of depends on the personality, right? Because we’re all busy. Yeah. And I do understand that. And for some firms it’s kind of like, I know and I know that they know that our relationship is strong. And if something pops up, I’m certainly going to call them, no question, because we’ve established enough of a rapport on the front end that we may not necessarily need the touchpoint. But for other firms, it’s sort of out of sight, out of mind. So I get emails all the time where it’s like, hey, I see you’re hiring. Might I be able to help you in the interim? Right? When that feels a little more self-promotional. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That’s not necessarily what I’m looking for, but to sort of refer back to my earlier point, if they are just thinking about an industry connection, a conference they want to invite me to, even a panel they think I could be great to join, things that, you know, separate from the day-to-day that could just, that may cost them nothing but help me from a career perspective. Those are good touch points just to keep me thinking about them because I know that they’re thinking about me.

[00:15:38] Michelle Calcote King: Right. And providing value when they reach out, not just coming to you with an ask. Yeah, so going back to where we started with the, you know, those dinners, those events, those check-ins. So when firms that do still do that kind of thing, are there aspects of them that seem effective to you versus forgettable?

[00:16:01] Candisse Williamson: Yeah, I think there’s two. I think the first effective way for client engagement is actually when I’m not even a client. So there’s a firm that I can think of that, you know, is sort of trying to place themselves as like the large firm with a real understanding of this entertainment industry, an on-the-ground understanding of the entertainment industry. And so they’ll invite people that are not clients and not even all lawyers, to just be together in different spaces and places. And again, I’m not a client of theirs directly, but they know that I could potentially offer value to people that are their clients or that we’re already talking. So why not bring us all together in one forum? I like things like that because it just keeps that firm top of mind if I were to need something, but also shows that they’re in the middle of the industry where we need to know what’s going on, and if they know what’s going on, then they’re going to be more strategically positioned to help if I really do need something. So I do think dinners like that where it’s not just a wine and dine, but it’s really, to my earlier point, connecting the dots for people that may not necessarily have an opportunity to be together. That’s great. I think the other thing is I have found, I’ve worked at two different large law firms in my career. One firm does an excellent job with alumni relations. And another firm doesn’t do it as much or doesn’t seem to be such a focus. And I think that’s a missed opportunity, I think because alums similar to, you know, school alums, we really do really end up at cool spots and like, we might not even cross paths at our time in the firm, but we all have this sort of unique connection. And so I think firms that really try to connect their alums, again, because as I said at the beginning, I often will go back to people that I worked with that were trained and give them work, that’s a really another smart, I think, spend for firms to really boost up their alumni base and offer those connections and touch points for the people that, you know, they trained some years ago.

[00:18:08] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, that’s a great point about alumni networks. So to kind of sum this up, if you were to give law firms three priorities for winning and keeping clients like you, what would that be?

[00:18:22] Candisse Williamson: I guess one would be do good work and make sure that, you know, tell a friend to tell a friend. So, again, a firm can always say to me, listen, we’re looking for more work. If you know of anybody that is looking for a new firm, please refer me. And I would honestly look at my LinkedIn and start thinking about how I could help them if they’ve been great to me. Yeah. So nothing is as effective as a real true word-of-mouth referral. So just doing solid work is always great. Two, you know, have an industry expertise that is valuable to your client groups. And then three, I would say be flexible on the pricing model and structure based on your client. Like I’m not Coca-Cola. I’m not, you know, I’m not Disney. So I’m not going to be able to offer, you know, a rainmaking day for a client, but for me, the work is still quite valuable. The relationship is just as important. It’s a big deal. Everything that we do is a big deal. So firms that are able to understand my place in the market and can still service me in a way that’s reasonable is another thing that I would say. Just be flexible about it. And just to tug on that thread a little bit more, there was an instance where I was talking to a firm and I was trying to really make the budget work. And her position was like, well, I don’t know how much the work is going to be, and so I can’t give you like an estimate of a fee. And I said, well, I can’t get this work farmed out if I can’t give our finance team a proposal on what the estimated fee might be. Yeah. And we were both like, I was like, well, I would love to use you, but I don’t know what I’m looking at. She’s like, well, I don’t know what the work’s going to be. And we were just kind of like, well, what are we going to do? And so she thought about it and she came back to me and said, you know what? Why don’t we just institute like a cap of X dollars a month and we’ll work up to that cap and then we’ll stop and that’ll be your budget. And I was like, brilliant. Right. Let’s done. And so those types of creative conversations of understanding like the push and pull of what I’m dealing with internally makes a difference in, and is the difference in, a yes or a no.

[00:20:45] Michelle Calcote King: I love that example. Yeah. That’s great. So to close out our interview, is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you think is important to add to this discussion about client relationships and engagement with firms and their clients?

[00:21:02] Candisse Williamson: I think diversity still matters. I think that there’s been a lot of talk in this environment about, you know, DEI being not important, you know, women, people of color, et cetera, not being important. I think that as a person who has the ability to hire and, you know, depart with firms, I look at that. I look at what they’re focused on. I try to make sure I have a diverse slate of people because I like the diversity of thought. If everybody looks the same or they’re not, or they don’t care about training up the next generation of young women or young Black lawyers or young Latino lawyers or LGBTQ, et cetera, that’s a problem for me. And so it may not be as important to certain people, but it is still very important and still matters, I think, to a lot of us in the industry. And so firms need to not discard those initiatives.

[00:22:05] Michelle Calcote King: Thank you for making that point. It’s a great point. So we’ve been talking to Candisse Williamson of Hartbeat. Thank you so much for your time.[00:22:17] Announcer: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.